Brenda Harp
“Giver Of Mercy”
This is my favorite musical moment in the film — the “Love Scene” between the young preacher’s daughter and music minister. The director was in love with a Sarah McLachlan song and they even edited the film to one of her tracks. Needless to say some of her songs have been licensed for more than the entire budget of this film so we needed to find a replacement. We wanted something female and rootsy with religious images so when I found this track I thought, oh please let it work with picture, and boy did it. It was spiritual and sexy and right when she is in a hot embrace on the Sunday school floor it cuts to a picture of Jesus looking down and the song lyric says, “Lord of Creation.” After looking at Brenda’s bio I saw she was a worship leader and I thought, oh no I’ve got to call her because she may not want to have her song in this movie. So I left her a message but Michelle and I thought we would be finding something else. She called back and I said I want to use your song but it’s in a very edgy film. Brenda said, “What’s it about?” So I said it’s about a preacher’s daughter who has an affair with her music minister and she said, “Oh like that never happens.” I looked over at the director and gave her the thumbs up. Needless to say she agreed and we just did a cast and crew screening of a rough version and you could really hear them react.

Wayside Drive
“The Great Divide”
This is perhaps one of the most interesting stories because they had written a song called “Come Get Some” that the director loved. She wanted the lead character to sing this song in club scene. In preparation for shooting the film I got the instrumental tracks from them and I recorded a version of their song with the lead actress singing it. I did a rough shooting mix and we were ready to go. During production, it was decided to cut the entire scene and the song with it. But during the last week of finishing the film it was decided to add some great high-speed shots of the Houston skyline during a driving scene. Guess what? The song for that scene didn’t work with the new footage so Michelle suggested another one of their songs and I cut it in and it looked great. So they lost a placement when a scene was cut and got placed when some footage was added. Talk about full circle.

Barefoot Servants
“Box of Miracles”
This track is mixed down low in a 7-11 scene. We wanted a 70′s rock sound
and these guys really have it. It’s a bit
of an all-star band featuring Singer/ Guitarist Jon Butcher and world famous bassist Leeland Sklar. I hope we have
a soundtrack because this track really rocks and you can’t tell in the movie because it’s just there to add a blue collar feel to the scene.

Neptune Crush
“Dinosaurs In The Garden”
This is the big opening song that sets the tone for the movie. This one was found by the director using our program so I get no credit for finding this track but I did music edit this thing within an inch of it’s life. It’s during a drug trip part scene with crazy special effects so I’m turning it up & down, cutting out verses, making it sound like it playing through a door and then like it’s part of an acid trip and then part of a paranoid delusion.

Jonathan Clay
“Back To Good”
Jonathan is a Houston native who is now out in LA and his song has been in and out of this movie in two different places so many times I’ve lost count. It’s a great song about getting back to a good place and Lord knows this girl could use that. It plays in a long driving scene where she is going back home with her father after being busted and during a walking scene where she thinking about trying to do better.

Krome
“Makes Em Move”
The director wasn’t sure about using Rap or Hip-Hop but she wanted to show that small town kids listen to hip stuff. Krome is from Nashville and the nephew of The Fairfield Four gospel quartet, so he was raised in the church but this track sounds like a party and guess what — it plays during a party by the lake. We tried Rock and Metal but Hip-Hop won the day and Krome beat out a lot of other tracks for this spot.

Gael MacGregor
“We’re Hot Tonight”
Gael is not only a great singer but a music supervisor herself. Needless to say her songs get licensed a lot. This song was one of three that was presented to the director with the idea being something up, positive, female and country/real. It’s play- ing in the background of a restaurant for about 10 seconds, so don’t blink.

Gary Hill
“Looking For A Woman”
I love this guys voice because he sounds like the second coming of Johnny Cash. I submitted several of his songs for scenes in the movie and I even cut one to picture but he got beat out or passed on ev- ery time. On the last day of the mix we got to a long scene (4:08) in a restaurant and they asked where the music for this scene was. Oops somehow it never got on the list! I ran into an office with my lap- top and the director and started playing songs I said how about this guy, and the director said let’s see it. So I cut it to picture and moved it around a bit so his lyrics didn’t fight the dialogue and she approved it on the spot.

Albert & Gage
“I Used To Be Lonesome”
We needed something up and happy to play in the background at a restaurant where Hanna sees the music minister years later with his now pregnant wife and 4 kids. This Austin duo really hit the spot. They beat out 6 or 7 other tracks for this slot.

Sally Semrad
“Grace of Angels”
I had this track in a long list of cool songs for one of the driving scenes. Michelle logged on and listened to all the tracks and made notes and her note by this song was
“I Love! Love! Love! this song where can we use it?” I wrote back how about the end title? And so it is. This is the only song that was even tried and that is very rare.

Lacey Brown
“Let It Go”
We needed a second end title song and we had tried Lacey in several other spots and her stuff never worked to picture but we loved her stuff. She was a top 12 final- ists on American Idol and is signed to Tracy Lawrence’s production company. They are making a great record with her — and now she’s in this movie.

Who’s who:
MM = Michelle Mower
BC = Barry Coffing
JR: = Julius Robinson

JR: So Michelle, can you tell us how ‘Preacher’s Daughter’ was conceived and written?

MM: It was conceived from life. I am a preacher’s daughter so I have a lot of stories that can be told from that charac- ter’s perspective. Although the story itself is fictional, despite what Barry will tell you (laughing).

BC: I keep accusing her of it being autobiographical.

MM: The plot is actually fictional, because trust me, my life growing up was not nearly that interesting! But at the same time I think there are a lot of elements in the story that I have pulled from my own experiences as a preacher’s daugh- ter. Everyone who’s seen it, or read the script, say they feel like the story is very realistic. I started writing the screen- play ten years ago. I wrote a short version of the script and took it to a local producer who read it and said, “This needs to be a feature film, it’s too big of a story to tell in a short film format.” So I went back and basically wrote the feature length version. It was such a personal story that it took me a long time just to let anyone read it. Writers are often self-conscious about what we write. Finally I did start getting it out there and getting feedback. We did a script reading and everyone who read it really had a lot of great things to say. We entered it into a couple of competitions, and placed in them. I finally ran out of excuses not to make the film, and I’m glad I did. I think the timing was right when we actually did make it. I think if I had tried to make this film 10 years ago, it would not have been nearly as good. Things happen as they are supposed to and I think we produced a film that we can all be really proud of.

JR: Great, before we get to the music part, what was the biggest challenge in making this film?

MM: Oh by far it was the budget. We had relatively no money. It was extremely low budget, and I went into this production thinking I was going to shoot something very guerrilla style – getting my film community together, shooting on weekends with all local cast and crew. As things evolved, we ended up taking the production to a much more mainstream level, got some named talent attached… Hey, we got Barry Coffing on board, I mean right there that’s great!

BC: Thanks! I remember when I first read the script, I was one of the people cheering and saying you can’t do this “no name,” because you’ve got a great story going. If there is no name talent attached, it really makes it rough. So I was on the other side saying “no, no” — go get some name actors, the script deserves it. Michelle, tell them about the name talent you have in the film.

MM: My lead actress is Andrea Bowen who’s best known for her role as “Julie Mayer” on Desperate Housewives –Teri Hatcher’s daughter on the show. My lead actor is Adam Mayfield who played “Scott Chandler” on All My Children. We also have Lew Temple who is one of those guys where you’ve seen him in a thousand things, he is kind of a character actor. He’s done a lot of Hollywood studio stuff and indie stuff, like Unstoppable, Rango, Domino, and Waitress. He’s a great actor and I loved working with him so much. Watching him was amazing, I mean all of my actors were. Andrea is phenomenal; I was so fortunate to get her on my film. So we have a bunch of talented local actors, too, like Ron Jackson, a very seasoned actor, Cyndi Williams and Jamie Teer.

JR: Now that I have you talking Barry, what was the concept for the music, if there was any, after you read the script and then when you saw the cut?

BC: When I read the script, you kind of break down the film. I thought, “We’ll need music for the party here, a transition here, church music there, the girl is a singer what will she sing?” First, I was dealing with pre-records. That’s music performances shot on-camera during a scene. You have to record those with the actors in advance in the studio, or have the actors sing to pre-cleared pre-existing music. In the story, it’s in the church and there is a music minister. There were a lot we had to deal with before we could even shoot. Michelle grew up on this genre, so when it came time to pick a “church song,” she would think for like a millisecond and just name one. The songs she picked would work perfectly, so I just shut up and listened. Then there’s a song I wrote with you Julius, “You’re of the Glory” which was the secular “Christian” song she sang in the church.

We had a music minister Adams’s character who had dreams of being a rock star, more than a music minister, so we needed to have another song that kind with a more secular feel, which I wrote. In his head he’s performing in front of ten thousand people like Billy Joel and Andrea’s character walks in, sees him in that light which sort of begins the process of her not seeing him as an old music minister. It’s her seeing someone with a musical passion, he suddenly seems younger, and sexier. So I ended up writing that custom, specifically for the scene. Then when it came time to post, Michelle had a very clear vision of what she wanted musically. She wanted a rootsy, down-home raw country, Austin kind of vibe, with acoustic instruments. A lot of it was utilizing the technology and tools in Musicsupervsior.com – we pretty much used every bell and whistle it has. For example, while she was editing the film she found the big opening party music. Can you jump in on that Michelle?

MM: Yeah, I had gone in and was looking for songs because the opening party music in- volves a drug trip where the music itself is a part of the trip. The drug trip sequence had to be cut to the music because it was a part of the actual experience itself, so I went onto Musicsupervisor.com and found this one song I really liked. I was actually thinking of it for a different scene. But once I was sitting with my editor I thought to just try it there and see how it plays, and once he laid it down it was just like, “That’s it, that’s the song, that’s the one I have to have!” You can ask Barry, I was dogging him, I was like — this is my song, it’s it!

BC: (laughing) Yeah, she goes “There’s two songs that I found that are in the movie, okay? You get them, I don’t give a shit about anything else, these two songs are in the movie!”

JR: What was the title of the opening song?

BC: It’s called “Dinosaurs in the Garden” by Neptune Crush.

JR: Oh great!

BC: Michelle and I have really crazy schedules, so we weren’t at the same location a lot. We used MusicSupervisor.com as our virtual home base. I put a bunch of songs in project fold- ers. One of the songs ended up being used for our end title. She wrote me back in the notes section and said “I love! Love! Love! this song, where can we use it?” So I wrote back, “How about the end title?’ So Sally Semrad’s “Grace of Angels” ended up being the end title song. By using the site, we got to spend our time being creative rather than trying to be forensic lawyers spending all our time hunting down labels and publishers. But we don’t feel like we compromised anything. Like, Michelle really liked a Sarah McLachlan tune for a love scene, and it was a great song, but what we ended up with from the site is better, sexier and more disturbing in context: “Giver of Mercy” by Brenda Harp.

MM: Something that Barry touched on because the film is so rooted in spirituality, the back- drop of it is the church and this is an environment that many people are familiar with already, but maybe not as fully as the character. So it was a challenge trying to find music that played into that spirituality without being specifically Christian music, if that makes any sense. It’s hard to find music that can play both ways, secular and religious, and I think we did a really good job of finding music that has a spiritual element to it, but at the same time could be used in an edgy way.

BC: Whether the bands were Christian or secular, one of the things we secretly did was have religious phrases or images in the lyrics whenever possible.

JR: Any other stories about posting this film?

BC: On the last day of dub stage we had to make three emergency music searches on MusicSupervisor.com. First we had a scene we edited perfectly for the picture, and then Michelle found some really great footage of a skyline at night, a 24-hour high speed passing of time, and cut it into the film. Then music no longer worked for that scene. So opened up my laptop added the new picture and re-edited it, showed it to her. We tried two or three different ways, finally got it right, walked into the studio with a thumb drive, gave the guys it to the guys mixing the film and we were done. Then in another scene they said “We got all of your music cues Barry except for the this one for a jukebox.” We all missed it, but mostly me. So I’m going “Oh crap!” so Michelle and I go into the next room with our two laptops and log into Musicsupervisor.com. We finally find one, she goes “yeah that works,” so I do the music edit and make it sound like it’s coming out of a jukebox, walk in and hand it to them. They plug it in and it’s perfect. Finally, we knew we were going to need a second end title song for the credits, so I found some other stuff, and played it for Michelle. She loved one and boom — there’s our second end title song. So three things were placed on the very last day using the technology that we built. Yea us!
JR: Right, because you had it right at your fingertips and could search through a very large catalog (over 125,000 tracks), find something – know it was pre-cleared and ready to li- cense… What an amazing tool!

BC: Yeah, we also found this guy named Gary Hill in a search, and he sounds like the second coming of Johnny Cash. He’s killer and we plugged him into one of the restaurant scenes. From Tracy Lawrence, who’s a country star who has his own production company and label, we have a former American Idol artist he’s developing in our system Lacey Brown. She got the second end title slot I was talking about.

JR: Barry, who scored the film?

BC: A composer named Scott Szabo, and actually, funny enough he and I both went to the high school of performing visual arts. He and I were always bantering stuff back and forth. It was really a nice collaboration. Michelle has assembled a lot of really great people for this project. Kelley Baker who did the sound design and dialogue editing also did a great job. World class talent!

MM: Typically, one of the biggest problems that plague indie films is sound. So we certainly had our fair share of issues come up once we started posting the film. We had scenes that literally had no dialogue recorded. We were having some major issues like popping and background noise. I wasn’t really sure how bad it was, I knew there were some challenges but I honestly couldn’t guess how much it would cost me to fix. So Kelley Baker, who is a long time friend, is a professional sound designer in Hollywood. He did a number of Gus Van Sant’s films and Todd Haynes’s Far From Heaven. I sent him the Quicktime of the film and said okay, how bad is it? His reply was, “Don’t worry, whatever problems you have can be fixed.” He’s a real pro, but he is also a true guerilla independent filmmaker. He goes around the country teaching classes on how to make microbudget films — so he gets it. Kelley brought together a team up in Portland, Oregon that, I mean, there’s no way I could assemble a team like this on my own. Like, my dialogue editors worked on films like Gladia- tor and The Talented Mr Ripley. They are highly experienced people who agreed to help this little indie out. I did pay them — but certainly not as much as Hollywood! So it was nice to be able to have that level of experience to contribute to the film. What they did with the sound is absolutely mind blowing.

JR: Yeah, that’s so important! As we know, more than 50% of the impact of a film is the sound and music.

MM: I would even say 60%. I put it up there with importance with having a good script for the story, having good actors. Sound and music play such a huge part in the telling of the story. I have been editing and watching the movie over the last year. When the music and final sound mix were added, it was like watching a whole new movie. It was such a beauti- ful experience as a filmmaker to finally see your vision, your words on paper realized into something that you can be proud of, and say “I did that” along with all of these other brilliant people.

BC: I know you are trying to be modest about this, but literally — you did that. Yeah, you ral- lied people to your cause, but you were the evangelist, you were the creator. You don’t write those words, nobody does anything. Making a movie is such an epic journey; don’t even feel bad about taking a little credit.

JR: Both Barry and I have been down the road as producer and writer on some long-term, difficult film projects!

MM: Oh yeah I’m taking credit! You see my name twice in the opening credits (laughs) so I’m taking my due credit, don’t get me wrong. But with that said, there is absolutely no way that I could have done this without the help of everyone involved. All the way from my script supervisor to my first AD to my sound guys, to craft services, everyone involved were such an instrumental part in getting this film realized and where it is now. I’m so proud of the film we created and no matter what happens, or where it goes distribution wise, to me, we have succeeded with this film. Despite all of the challenges we had to face and obstacles to over- come, tensions, craziness that happens on ultralow budget sets — at the end of the day all that matters is that we told a good story and we told it well.

BC: Making a good movie — nobody really wants to say it, but it is pretty close to a miracle! When you consider that they make 5,000 feature movies a year, and less than 450 of them even get commercially sold, your odds are already not good!

JR: Michelle, what is your background before this film?

MM: Well, I’ve written, produced and directed a number of short films. I’ve produced TV episodes, shot music videos, just a hodgepodge of things. Here in Houston there just is not a lot of feature film work, so you kind of have to make your own work, and build your own resume. So that’s the path that I took. I was really fortunate that I worked for a non-profit media organization that is one of the oldest in the country called Southwest Alternate Media Project (SWAMP). It’s been around for 34 years, and I was a program coordinator for them for eight years. SWAMP enabled me to make many valuable connections within the industry and in the independent world as well, and many of those contacts ended up working on this film, like Barry and Kelley. They knew me, they knew my work in the community, they knew my work as a filmmaker and wanted to support me and my project; supporting a Houston film maker! So that’s my background. I’m also a preacher’s daughter so I feel like this is a story I really wanted to tell and not in the traditional 7th Heaven way so I think that hopefully people will see the film and at the very least say it is a well made film that tells a story that is honest, and real and ultimately has a positive message.

JR: Wonderful. When are you going to screen it?

MM: We’re not sure yet. The next stage of this process is to start submitting to film festivals. Hopefully, we will get a nice festival premiere in the early part of next year. We’ll see where we go from there, hopefully we get a distributor on board who will take it out into the world so more people can see it.

JR: That’s great. So is there a growing Houston film making community? Other filmmakers that you know of that are working on movies there?
MM: Absolutely, in fact I just came from a meeting with a producer who is making a feature film here called Patriot Act – definitely one to watch. They are doing it right. There are a lot of people in Houston who are trying to make films – some better than others, just like in any community. I’ve been able to meet a lot of super- talented people who I believe are going to be the important filmmakers of the future.

JR: Tell us about the next project you are going to do and where do you think filmmaking is going in the future?

MM: One of the areas I’ve become interested in, looking at my own career and where I’d like to go, is “transmedia.” This is multi-platform storytelling where you use a variety of media — anything from film, TV, internet, mobile to live performances –different options you can incorporate into your storytelling. It engages the audience in a very direct way, so the audience actually becomes a part of the storytelling process. To me that is such a revolutionary concept; the story will evolve with the audience actually participating. I went to a conference in New York back in April to learn more about some of the people leading the transmedia revolution as I like to call it, and they just had another meeting in San Francisco. To me the beauty of all the technology we have now is that storytelling can evolve into something a lot more interactive and interpersonal. Ultimately, it will change the way that we consume media in the future.

JR: Can you talk about how music underlines your drama? I think it tells your audience when it’s okay to laugh and cry and really prompts them to feel things. Audiences don’t know how to feel sometimes.

MM: Even as a writer, music is important. I actually listen to music that sort of puts me in that mental mode of the script. So for instance with Preacher’s Daughter I listened to a lot of home grown, folk, country, some rock like Lucinda Williams, Sheryl Crow — a lot of different music that I felt like was female centered and had the female perspective, and had a lot of storytelling in the music itself. That helped me to keep the tone of the story where I wanted it. So I use music more than just in the final product.
JR: Barry, do you think down the line there could be a soundtrack compilation?

BC: Oh yes there’s a bunch of great artists and songs in the film and even though there are a lot of diverse styles there’s the spiritual through lines that I think will hold it all together. We’ve got Barefoot Servants in the 7-11 scene, the song is called “Box of Miracles.” There are two cool indie songs about angels and we even have a hip-hop track. The majority of the music has a real Texas flavor because there are quite a few artists from Houston & Austin.

JR: That’s great.

MM: That was something that was really important to me because it is shot in Texas. I don’t consider myself a Hollywood filmmaker, I’m a Texas filmmaker. I sort of like to try to keep things down home, and make it feel like we’re telling a story from this region – not Hollywood.

JR: That’s great, congratulations!

MM: Well thank you so much.

Neal Busby & Huguette Arsenault a.k.a. Twirl hail from Toronto and have a growing legion of fans around the world – mostly by having their songs licensed in film & television shows in 75 countries (see credits at end of interview).

JR: Thank you so much for uploading your music, it’s fantastic! I’m really thrilled we were able to place “The Things We Do For Fashion” by Twirl in an upcoming fashion show scene in ABC/Family’s ‘Pretty Little Liars.”

NB: Well thanks to you guys for getting it out there and heard by all the right people!

JR: Right off the bat, can you tell me where this song came from? What inspired it?

NB: When writing songs, we tend to start with a title. So the title came from my wife, Huguette Arsenault, who is the singer in Twirl. She was watching a TV show called, “Fashion Television” up here in Canada. The host was talking about fashion as usual, and I guess somebody had to wear something that wasn’t quite comfortable — and the host said, “Oh, the things we do for fashion!” The title just stuck, and it was kicking around for a while. I started thinking of a track to go with it, sort of a dance and Lady Gaga type vibe, and it rolled together right there.

JR: I see by your list of placements that Twirl has had a lot of success placing music on TV. I don’t know if you want to call this a band or studio creation, but how do you characterize what it is, and why do you think it’s been so successful getting placements?

NB: We like to think of ourselves and present ourselves as a band. Originally that was the intention — to create a band and write some songs to play live. But as we started writing and getting songs out there, making connections with music libraries and music supervisors — and getting more placements – so that became the focus. For TV shows, the placements tended to be subject matters like partying, going out, having fun — pretty much positive music and imagery-related lyrics. People, places, things — specific subject matters were getting placed.

JR: That’s brilliant. One of the things we emphasize with our members is to learn the marketplace a little bit. It’s not for everyone — some people are just what they are and produce the music they do. But then there are a few very talented producers, songwriters, and bands like you guys who can really shape things a bit to address the licensing marketplace – and still maintain artistic credibility.

NB: Yes. So that’s what we started focusing on — creating Twirl songs with more specific imagery that related to typical scenes that you always see in TV shows; party scenes, fashion show scenes, etc., so we get a lot of those.

JB: Can you give me another example of a Twirl song and the placement it got?

NB: Well, our song “It Girl” was placed in the first season of “Pretty Little Liars” in the pilot episode, a scene where one of the girls goes to a mall and shoplifts. It’s a good fit, because the song is about a girl with attitude. We’ve had a lot of success with that song. It was also used in a show called “Make It Or Break It” in a scene where one of the girls does a semi-risqué balance beam act. Once again “attitude” was needed and the scene worked well with the lyrics and the music. It’s a little bit more electro-rock, with drum machines and more up-to-date with the music today.

JR: Much the way getting a hit song takes talent, hard work and a few breaks, having a catalog that consistently gets placed is quite an accomplishment. So what’s your secret?

NB: I think it’s because we dabble in a few different styles that we have found to work over and over — the electro-pop dance style, like the songs “It Girl” and “The Things We Do For Fashion” — as well as straight up pop-punk, and more alternative. Usually I’ve found that the more up-tempo material is what they’re looking for. In our case, all of our songs are mid-tempo to fast which works for high-energy type scenes. We like a lot of different styles of rock, so we like to change it up, but we do find that electro-pop/dance with a rock vibe is pretty cutting edge. It fits in with the Lady Gaga style, the Katy Perry style, but it’s still heavy enough to have a lot of energy for different types of scenes.

JR: By the way, does Twirl have fans that buy records and downloads?

NB: Yeah, our songs “It Girl” and “Out On The Town” are available on iTunes and CD Baby. Every time there is an episode of a fairly popular show with our songs, we see a spike in the MP3’s being bought — we get quite a few downloads. And probably we’ll see a lot more now with “The Things We Do For Fashion.” We just released it for purchase because we found out about this placement, so it will be out on iTunes probably in time for the episode.

JR: Do you have anything else you’re currently working on, or is Twirl the main thing?

NB: I’m a full time drum instructor. I also write drum books. But Twirl musically is the main focus. We don’t write with anyone else, my wife and I do it all together. It’s a lot of fun and it never seems like work. We love what we do.

JR: Isn’t that what life is all about, if you’re having a great time doing something and making a couple bucks? That’s the greatest.

NB: Yeah totally, we can spend a whole weekend writing songs and it never seems like a chore, it’s just great fun. And now making a bit of money from it doesn’t hurt, ha! But we would do it regardless. That’s how we started, we never thought of doing music licensing. One thing led to another and now that’s our focus.

JR: Ok, let’s go back in the time machine! Tell me about your career early on, about your band Slick Toxic.

NB: That’s taking me back! In the early 90’s I was just a drummer. I didn’t play anything else but drums back then. Slick Toxic played in Canada and in the states quite bit; we had an album that was released in North America by Capitol/EMI. In Canada it was pretty successful. We got a Juno Award, which is basically equivalent to a Grammy. We sold a Canadian Gold Album, which is 50,000 units. Of course our population is much smaller than the states. Gold in the US is 500,000. We toured around a lot and put out three CDs. Eventually it ran its course. We were like Guns N’ Roses-style hard rock and of course all that stuff got whipped in about six months by Nirvana. But the funniest thing is, Nirvana, all these years later, is my favorite band.

JR: That was a great time in music.

NB: My wife and I think of the early to mid 90s as being such a great period for rock. Some of that early 90’s stuff occasionally creeps into the music. I’m a big guy for melody so I really love Nirvana and all those bands because they definitely had a great handle on the melodic part. After Slick Toxic broke up, there was a period of time where I was doing a death metal band. This was just for me to have some fun and play crazy drums. After that I did a stint as the touring drummer for April Wine, which is a classic rock band in Canada. I was on the road filling in for their drummer who was ill for about a year. My wife and I, although we weren’t married back then, formed a top 40 band and then one thing led to another.

JR: Is that when you started writing songs together?

NB: When I met her initially I was still just a drummer; I didn’t even play guitar or bass. I had never written a song in my life! But she encouraged me because she needed someone to co-write with. So she is the one that got me going on writing, guitar playing, recording and mixing.

JR: So early on in your career you were just a drummer and you just picked up a guitar and learned it much later?

NB: Yeah, through sheer determination. Huguette bought an acoustic guitar. She loves to buy good stuff, so she bought a Taylor. I didn’t even play it, I just knew one chord a D major, and from there one thing led to another and I just started thinking, “I can do this.” I just played and played. I started writing, learned other people’s songs — and the next thing you know I had to learn how to do the digital recording. It took a good 10 years, but it happened!

JR: That’s amazing — you went from zero to all the way to the level you’re at now. May I ask how old you were when you picked up a guitar and really learned?

NB: Oh you’ll laugh; I didn’t start playing until I was about 32.

JR: Wow, and obviously you played drums since you were a kid?

NB: Yeah, started at 14. I was just driven to play drums and be in bands. I obviously learned hundreds of songs and learned a lot about arranging, but I had never written a song ever until I met Huguette and we started collaborating.

JR: That’s fascinating. Are there any other key people that are involved in what you’re doing on a day-to-day basis or is it just you and your wife?

NB: It’s just Huguette and me — we do everything. If there’s a guitar part that I find that’s extremely difficult for me to play but I can hear in my head, I have a great guitar player who has done tons of our tracks. His name is Russell Gray and has been doing stuff for us for a long time. I can’t thank him enough, he’s been a big part of a lot of tracks that are out there.

JR: That’s great, is there any advice you’d like to give our members about writing songs that getting placed in film and TV?

NB: There are a lot of people who offer up opinions about your songs, and you can spend time listening to their opinions and keep changing your songs. We did a bit of that and found it was mostly counterproductive. If you’re good, you know what is good — and if stuff is being placed and working, then your opinions are probably better than most. Don’t over-think things, that’s the main point. Just go with what you feel sounds good — if somebody doesn’t like it, somebody else might. Don’t read too much into the critiques. There’s a lot of critiquing out there and you can keep changing, but you won’t please everybody… so you have to please yourself first.

JR: That is very wise, thank you so much Neal!

Twirl Recent Credits include:
Film and TV: Pretty Little Liars (ABC), 10 Things I Hate About You (ABC), Fly Girls (CW) (Multiple episodes), The Beautiful Life (CW), Legally Blonde 3 Trailer, Scrappers (Spike), Life Unexpected (CW) (Multiple episodes), Friday Night Lights (ABC), Let’s Make A Deal, Family Jewels, The Osbournes Reloaded (FOX), The Academy Awards, Nintendo, Sand Blasters 3, The Little Couple, Wedded To Perfection (NBC), Making The Band, Renovation Nation, Ski Patrol, Toddlers and Tiaras, First Home, Clean Home Comes Clean, The City (MTV), Notes From The Underbelly (ABC), Life Is Wild (CWTV, CBS), Life With Derek, The Latest Buzz, South Of Nowhere (The N), Bad Girls Club (multiple episodes) (Oxygen), Dr. 90210 (E Network), America’s Got Talent, Regis & Kelly, MTV (various shows), Pimp My Ride, Rock The Cradle (MTV), Fashion Television – Multiple episodes, Fashion Television – 25th Anniversary Special
Television Commercials, Becel Margarine, Budweiser Superbowl commercial, Eastcoast American College, Bison Meats, Texas Government campaign TV Ad (Poison Is Bad), Sasktel Instinct Mobile phone, Mitsubishi Motors multi media usage, Johnny Delgado Is Dead Comic book soundtrack advertising campaign, Mitsubishi auto- U.S. regional, Alesse – Birth Control pill advertising campaign.

Wendy Marmo is Vice President of Music Services for MusicSupervisor.com. Her first job out of college was as the assistant to the President of Interscope Music Publishing where she got her first experience at pitching songs to artists and for film and television. She went on to work at MCA Music Publishing where she learned the fundamentals of music publishing and developed her copyright researching skills. Her position as Director of Film and TV music at MasterSource Music Catalog allowed her to work directly with music editors and music supervisors and provide them with the music they needed for their films. She has also held management positions at Priority Records and Universal Music Group where she became an expert in all forms of music licensing. Wendy and her husband Ronnie Marmo also produced a film, “West of Brooklyn”, which was released in 2009 by Osiris Entertainment.

JR: What are you working on now? What’s the most interesting part of each project — and what is the most challenging?

WM: My projects are varied in that some of them are pure clearance oriented, and some are music supervision oriented. The biggest one right now is Fox’s “So You Think You Can Dance” Season 8. The great Nancy Severinson is handling the clearance, and I’m doing the licensing and trafficking of the payments and licenses. It’s very complex. The most interesting part of it is just seeing the volume of music that is used on the show. And I love the detail of what the licenses have in them – the terms and rates — making sure all the “most favored nations” clauses are taken into consideration.

JR: Some of our readers may not know that term. Can you explain of “most favored nations?

WM: MFN (most favored nations) means every publisher and master owner has to have the same terms and payments in a particular TV show or film. So I have to make sure they all match based on what everyone has quoted.

JR: What other projects are you working on?

WM: I’m working on a film “For the Love of Money.” I’m the music supervisor. This is a very creative job, besides doing the clearance. I worked with the producers from the script stage because there were songs that needed to be cleared prior to shooting because they were going to be shot on camera. The soundtrack is very music heavy and spans two decades and two different countries. It starts in 1972 into the late 80’s, and it’s set partly in Israel and partly in USA. So they wanted the music to really reflect both the time period and the culture changes. They also wanted very popular music throughout which is really difficult to do considering they had a very low budget for music.

JR: What do you mean by “very popular” music?

WM: They wanted humongous artists like The Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, The Doors, The Who — and that was all in the first 20 minutes! So to replace those songs with songs that have that kind of unique feel was challenging, and exciting, sometimes stressful — and yet fun! We had to find songs that were big, recognizable, and that the producers could afford. We used some alternate masters in some cases, cover versions, or studio re-records by the original artists. Strategically we used the popular songs in places where they would be more noticeable to increase production value, and then fill in some of the more incidental cues with songs that sounded that they were from the same era or same style — but that were from less expensive unknown artists. MusicSupervisor.com has a lot of that in their catalog which I can choose from. Then we had to score the film, and that was very challenging trying to seam it all together.

JR: You’re the music supervisor on this film, so it’s different than the job you have on “So You Think You Can Dance.”

WM: Absolutely. And somewhere in the middle lies “Miss USA” that I just finished. I had to clear all of the music before the show aired. There were a lot of songs we couldn’t afford, and we had to replace them quickly and make sure they had everything they needed before the choreographers came in. I also was able to offer a few creative ideas on that project too.

JR: Could you give us an example of a “creative” idea?

WM: They had the song “She’s a Lady” that they wanted to use, but it turned out to be too expensive. The scene was a pre-recorded montage of old Miss USA episodes during the swimsuit competition. We see the 1960’s and 1970’s bathing suit styles, so I suggested “Venus” by Shocking Blue. They chose “Venus,” so that was exciting. And I managed to clear it in 24 hours!

JR: That’s great, and it worked really well against picture — in fact, in many ways better than the original idea.

WM: Yes! I thought it worked better too.

JR: So any other projects right now?

WM: Yes. I’m wrapping up the “America Country Music Awards, Girls Night Out,” show that was a televised concert of some the top ladies of country music. I’m also still wrapping up a movie from last year called “Stay Cool” which is finally going to get a release, so I’m finalizing some things on that. A lot of different projects going!

JR: Wendy, you’ve been in this game for a few years now. How have you seen things change?

WM: A recent trend I’ve noticed is that several of the major publishers are now handling licensing for the company’s masters as well. It’s certainly easier for we clearance people, but I imagine it has left some people unemployed and other people overworked!

JR: How difficult is music clearance in the business today?

WM: For those who are experienced at it, it’s simple. You request a quote, they give you a quote, you say yes or no or renegotiate, but there’s a process to it and so things move fairly quickly. I think when it gets complex is when there’re a lot of approval parties the labels or publishers need to go to. It’s not always up to the label or the publisher to decide how much something is going to cost, and often times the artists, or writer’s representation can make things very challenging and difficult. On the flip side, companies like MusicSupervisor.com have made things very easy because they have a lot of quality music pre-cleared – they control the masters and publishing on both sides. A lot of the great artists now aren’t getting record deals with the major labels, so this is where they are.

JR: In fact, even many of the older established artists who have seen record deals and their no re-record clauses lapse have gone ahead and re-recorded many of their biggest hits. We represent one library that has many of those – the San Juan catalog.

WM: Yes. And I can even go back to the original artist and they often have their own recordings of their hits that they own them instead of the label. On a recent film, I was clearing the Kenny Loggins’ song “This is It.” He had a studio re-recording, so we used that. On this movie, the San Juan Catalog had two re-records by the original artists. For “Play That Funky Music,” I spoke to the writer directly — he owns his own publishing, so of course the first thing I’m going to ask him is does he have a new master of it? He did, so I was able to license both sides directly from him.

JR: What is the secret to clearing very famous music that you wish someone had taught you at the beginning of your career?

WM: I think the big secret, which isn’t really a secret anymore, is step deals. A step deal is when you want the worldwide rights to use a song in perpetuity but you can’t afford it. Worldwide all media rights can cost anywhere from $20-60,000 or more depending on the song and the use. So, if you can’t afford to pay all of that at once, you can pay it in steps. You will do an initial payment upon execution of the license of maybe, for example, $5,000 and you can do steps at DVD release, TV release, or box office earnings as reported in the trades, and do pay bumps at each of those. Sometimes the overall amount will cost more in total than it would if you paid it all at once, but it allows you, especially on independent films, to get bigger songs. The master and song owners are willing to take the risk with you because they’ll get the money as you get the money. The downside for the producers is they are responsible for going and making those additional payments later.

JR: A well-constructed step deal has got such optimistic numbers for the producer that making an extra payment would hopefully not be too difficult.

WM: Yeah, if you’re selling 5 million dollars at the box office, I highly think you’re not going to flinch at paying another thousand dollars for the music.

JR: How did you get into this business and what were you’re first jobs?

WM: I knew I wanted to be in the record business my whole life, when I graduated from college that was the first thing I wanted to do. My first job was back in 1994. I was the assistant to the head of publishing for Interscope Music Publishing. I didn’t know what area I wanted to be in, but being the assistant to the president gave me a nice bird’s eye view on a lot of things. I really liked the publishing side. Funny though, they ended up selling Interscope Music’s publishing catalogue and they made my boss and I the head of the soundtrack department for about 6 months until they fired us all. But during that time I got very excited because we were reading scripts, and pitching songs for movies! I really liked that. I always wanted to get back there, but I spent the next 10 years working at major labels and publishers in the licensing departments. I learned a lot about clearance and I made a lot of contacts at record labels and publishers. But my dream was to always do music supervising, and so I started while I was still working.

JR: What was your first music supervisor job?

WM: The first project I supervised was my own film that my husband Ronnie Marmo and I produced called “West of Brooklyn.” It was a great training ground, because it was my movie and I was the boss so I didn’t have to worry too much about learning on the job! But I quickly did a few more films after that. I did “Outside Sales” and “Weather Girl” which were both small films. From there it’s just taken off. Then I started doing a few things for Dick Clark Productions. I left my job and started working freelance, and it was through being freelance that I connected with you (Julius Robinson) and Barry Coffing of MusicSupervisor.com. I have been working with you guys ever since and I am just happy as a clam!

JR: So are we! So here’s a basic question: what do you do about temp love a director or producer have — when they are just fixated on a pricey song that they temped in. What is the best way to nudge that person out of that idea if they can’t afford it?

WM: It’s always a challenge! I think the most difficult part of being a music supervisor is being the bearer of bad news to the producers — they can’t afford what they want. I offer a plan, usually depending on the budget, saying we can get usually one, two, or three big songs, and supplement the soundtrack with other great affordable music that will fit the era or scenes or style they are looking for. For instance in the movie “For The Love of Money” one of the big songs that was in there was the Rolling Stones “Sympathy for the Devil.” On their music budget there was no way they could have that song. Nothing would work. We tried everything and they were really hung up on it. I find the best thing is to really do the work — put alternative songs to picture, find something that gives you chills, then present it to them. For me, sending them ten songs to choose from just confuses them. They want to be told something works, and that it’s ok. For “The Love of Money” I replaced “Sympathy” with the T-Rex song “20th Century Boy.” T-Rex had a very unique feel and the same kind of macho, gritty kind of sound and worked for the scene. It was unique and totally in their budget.

JR: What is your favorite moment in the process of music supervising? Is it the first meeting, spotting, the script, editing, licensing, the premier when you get to walk down the red carpet – hopefully you get to do that now and then!

WM: My favorite part, which I have to imagine is most people’s favorite, is when you find just the right song and you put it to picture and it works. Those happy accidents where a beat falls right where the picture changes, and it works perfectly, it gives me chills and it’s the most fun part.

JR: What are the skills that someone needs to do this job?

WM: It’s a two-sided job and that’s what makes it challenging. You have your right brain people who are creative, who love the music and the film and love combining the two. These are people who search for the music and suggest ideas. But then you have to clear the music, and it’s a very rare person who gets to have their own staff to do their clearances. So then you have the left-brain that comes in. You need the relationships at publishers and labels, and to be detail oriented. You have to keep track of all the different quotes and licenses, fees, and MFN terms. You have to be a person who likes both. Also in between those two stages is figuring out who controls the publishing and masters — that can be a lot of detective work. I love that; sometimes it’s like pulling the string on a sweater and seeing where it goes. You follow the breadcrumbs until you get to the end. To me, it’s the perfect job. Some people don’t like the paperwork, but that’s a big part of it too.

JR: It’s interesting what you were saying about the detective work. I’m sure a lot of people think it’s all written down somewhere, but it’s not.

WM: Definitely not. The publishing is a lot easier to figure out than the master side. With publishing you can go to the Harry Fox webpage, ASCAP, BMI and get a basic idea of a few of the publishers. You can contact them and usually get the missing information. Finding out who controls a master is way more complicated. There is no one site to go to and search for that. I have a few tricks. I use the All-Music guide a lot, or Amazon. If you search for an album there you can figure out when the first release was that had the song on it you’re looking for. The first album — whatever label that was released on — usually will be the label that controls it now. Then you have to know where that label has ended up, because they’ve all been sold a thousand times. It can be very complicated.

JR: I’d think someone who has accumulated experience such as yourself knows a lot of this stuff. It’s still very surprising to me that there isn’t a single resource that can help. Maybe in the future supervisors will get together and create that.

WM: Yeah it’s definitely complicated. For example, a few years ago Williamson music and the Oscar and Hammerstein Catalog got sold. I found out who they sold it to by searching online and looking for articles in Variety and found that out. So now when I see something on ASCAP that says Williamson music, I know that now its Magnum Music in New York. The masters that used to be licensed through EMI Capitol in the L.A. Capitol building — all those masters are now actually being licensed through EMI Music Publishing in New York.

JR: So if you have some advice for someone that was really interested in this as a career, what would that advice be?

WM: That advice would be to start working with filmmakers with short films going to film festivals. Go to film schools and work with some of the kids who are making movies Start finding music that you want to use in the films, and then start doing your research. It takes a lot of practice to learn these things, but as you do the detective work you learn as you go. Even practice – just pick up your favorite album and look at the songs and go research online about who owns the publishing, just for fun.

JR: That’s really cool. Is there anything that you would like to add about what you do, good, bad, ugly, whatever?

WM: I love the work — the work is awesome. I have never been happier with the kinds of projects that I’m working on and what I get to do. The hardest part of doing what I do, honestly, is dealing with the different personalities. It takes all the knowledge of music and film, and all the knowledge of publishing, record labels, and all of that. But the hardest part is the psychology. You have to like to work with people, and if you can keep a smile on your face through the most difficult of situations then you will succeed.

JR: At the end of the day, you get to go see that movie, or TV show, video, or website and just go, “Wow, that is great, the music really works” — and you helped create it.

WM: Exactly, and especially when working with an independent filmmaker, you’re really helping somebody to realize their vision and their dream, which is awesome. When you get a project that is such a big project for somebody, and you help them complete it with the perfect music that brings it to life — it’s very gratifying!

Richard Glasser is the Film & Television Music Executive for The Weinstein Company (current credits in interview below). He was previously at The Yari Group.

Glasser has served as music supervisor for major motion pictures including the film Crash, which received the Academy Award for Best Picture. His supervision credits also include Hostage, starring Bruce Willis; Painted Veil, starring Naomi Watts; The Illusionist; Kickin’ It Old Skool, starring Jamie Kennedy; First Snow, starring Guy Pearce; Gray Matters, starring Heather Graham; Find Me Guilty, starring Vin Diesel; and Even Money, starring Danny DeVito. A former Motown recording artist, Glasser has also enjoyed a successful career as a composer and songwriter. He has scored several films, including, Poolhall Junkies. His songs have been recorded by some of the music industry’s top artists.

JR: First of all, congratulations on your position at the Weinstein Company. How long have you been there now?

RG: I’ve actually been with the company a little over a year.

JR: What are the latest credits and projects that you are working on now?

RG: We did “The Kings Speech”, “Scream 4”, “Hoodwinked 2”, “Submarine”, we’re getting ready to release a film called “Sarah’s Key.” We’re going to release another film in August called “Dirty Girl”, “Spy Kids 4”, also in August. Then “Our Idiot Brother,” “Apollo 18”, “I Don’t Know How She Does It” (which is a Sarah Jessica Parker film) and much more.

JR: That’s fantastic. What has been the overall challenge working over at the Weinstein Company?

RG: I’ve been trying to build a music library from their existing material, and organizing it so that we can license out to third parties. We have some songs — but the majority is score.

JR: So the Weinstein is actually creating it’s own library?

RG: We have created the Weinstein Music Library and it has the full library of films where we control master and sync. We’ve been doing fairly well with licensing it for commercials, trailers, and other movies. Some of our cues from films have been in some other movies. It’s been fairly successful.

JR: That’s great Richard, I had no idea the company was doing that. What inspired the company to take this direction?

RG: Well, when I first approached the company I wanted to build them a library because they knew in my past jobs at other companies I had built libraries that had been successful and made money. So, they were really interested in taking stuff that has been sitting and collecting dust and turn it into revenue.

JR: That makes sense, another income stream that a production company could be taking advantage of.

RG: Exactly.

JR: But you still are obviously going out to other sources when needed?

RG: Yes, we’re using our library a lot for our DVDs and menus. We continue using other companies and other submissions for all our films.

JR: As a music supervisor are you finding that there is a greater appreciation for what the music contributes to the overall success of the show?

RG: Absolutely. I think music is an essential part of any film. I think it drives the film, I think lyrically, when you put in music for a montage, or an opening or closing title that’s written for the particular film, it adds greatly to building the impact of that film.

JR: I think because of how much music has started driving television, a lot of Hollywood filmmakers are thinking “let’s feature music a bit more” — make it more of a character in the film and perhaps even draw another revenue stream through the soundtrack.

RG: Absolutely, and you look at TV programs like “Glee” and “The Voice” and those kind of shows that are finding fresh new talent and also driving sales and Youtube and iTunes. Everyone is making money off of that.

JR: What is your favorite moment in the process of supervising? Is it the spotting, the editing phase, the licensing, or even the premiere when it’s all done and you’re sitting there watching how the music works with the film?

RG: The most exciting time for me is when I first meet the directors and producers. We see the raw footage that we’re going to take, and then watch it grow into something that becomes beautiful and artistic. When you see the finished product you realize: “Wow, it started here and went to there.”

JR: How do you deal with the situation when you have a limited budget for music, and the director really wants some very big copyrights that aren’t cheap. How do you work that with a lower budget?

RG: You have the initial budget, and then I think it’s a matter of compromise. A lot of times the director wants a piece and the studio says no, they’re paying too much money or they’re over budget. So the director gets this particular piece in, but then you get three other cues that are really good that he likes but aren’t as big. So it’s always a negotiation — it’s just working it out. That’s one of the big issues — it would be great if we could just spend whatever we wanted to, but it doesn’t work that way.

JR: So, have you been using step deals as a solution?

RG: We don’t normally like to do step deals because it gets complicated, and we try to shy away from that. Since I’ve been here with the Weinstein Company, I haven’t seen one step deal yet.

JR: How about soundtrack album release. Is that more common or less common? How often does that come up now?

RG: I’m very lucky that I have really good relationships with the presidents of soundtrack labels. So we’ve been getting soundtrack releases and really promoting physical product when everything is going digital.

JR: Can you give me a quick wrap up on how you got into this business? How did Richard Glasser become a music supervisor working on great movies?

RG: Well, I started off as a Motown recording artist, so I think I came up the ranks a little different than most executives. I was a songwriter, composer, so I understood the recording artist — I knew that line of work. Then I became a composer for films and television, and did supervision as well. Then I started going into companies as an executive and started building catalogs. So it’s been an interesting career for me because I really understand how to talk to a songwriter and a composer. I think that really helps because I was in their position and I know what they’re going through.

JR: You can speak to them in real terms about what’s happening in the studio, what you’re looking for vocally and track wise.

RG: Yes, or putting the musicians together, guiding what kind of instrumentation they’re going to use. It’s just a really great thing to see that, especially when you get a young composer who’s kind of new. He goes into a spotting session and I’m there to guide him. I’ve done that in a couple of movies already.

JR: I see. If you had any advice for someone who is interested in becoming a music supervisor or working as a music executive at a film/tv company, what would that be?

RG: When I speak at seminars or when I speak at film conferences, or festivals, I always tell any kind of new supervisor — go to film festivals and meet those directors and producers who are going to be the directors and producers of the future. Hang out, tell them what you do. Go in there and find a film they’re working on that’s a short film. Get in there and work with them clearing the music, showing them what you can do — because if that person is going to become big – they’re gonna take you along with them.

JR: It really is about establishing those relationships where you worked successfully even on a lower, no budget film and as their career moved, your career will move as well.

RG: Yes. If you look back at a lot of filmmakers, you’ll see they started as either music video editors, or music video directors — and all of a sudden they started doing big films. So I guarantee whoever helped them at that lower level — I bet you they’re still working with them.

JR: Definitely. Is there anything else you would like to add about what you’re doing now that you would like people to know?

RG: We’re working on finishing the “Project Runway” music library from all eight years. We own that show on television, and so I developed a library featuring electronic music. I put selections together that are going out for licensing on other projects.

JR: That’s fantastic. Well that’s great Richard, I really appreciate it. We just did a really nice interview with Chris Mollere, so this will be up soon.

RG: Chris is a great guy

JR: Yeah, he’s one of the brightest young stars in the world of music supervisors.

RG: I agree!

JR: Alright well thank you Richard!

Musicsupervisor.com placed the song “Glow” in the first season episode 10 — written and performed by UK alt-rock band The Stanley Blacks

Hosted by Cat Deeley, SO YOU THINK YOU CAN DANCE traveled across the country to Chicago, Dallas, Nashville, New York, Los Angeles and Miami, in search of dancers who represent the best in America. Those who shine during auditions are given a ticket to Las Vegas for callbacks, where they work with top choreographers to learn and then be judged on multiple styles of dance.

This season, Music Supervisors’ Wendy Marmo will be the one in charge of getting all the publishing and master clearances for the entire run ensuring they will have exactly what they need to show the world what they’ve got.

An interview with Jeffrey and Theresa Brooks of Apocalypse Cow

JR: JULIUS ROBINSON, MUSICSUPERVISOR.COM

JB: JEFFREY BROOKS, APOCOLYPSE COW

TB: THERESA BROOKS, APOCOLYPSE COW

JR: Did you know that “Flashbulbs” replaced Madonna’s “Vogue” in the Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2?

JB: That’s fantastic.

JR: So can you tell me about “Flashbulbs?”

TB: It was started from a hook in my head. The idea of flashbulbs, actually the song “Paparazzi” was newish at the time. I just went with the flow and used a lot of Kelly Clarkson-type ideas. We have a singer we’ve worked with who’s 20-ish and in college and so I had her voice in mind as I was writing the song. Her name is Apocalypse Cow ; Jeffrey , Dan Jeremy Brooks and Theresa Brooks Courtney Jurick, but she goes by Courtney Jay.

JB: She’s been on MTV’s “Made” and performs in Chicago.

JR: So did you cut it there in your studio in Chicago?

JB: Yeah, we write and record everything right here.

JR: Tell me about the process; once Theresa had the song then what do you go through to get that sounding so good?

TB: We write out the basics to the song, bounce ideas back and forth.

JR: What’s going on with that there? Are there clubs that are featuring Chicago music, or artists out of there that you know about who you recorded?

JB: Well “Bloodshot Records” are out of Chicago, a part of a bigger resurgent country thing, and I think it’s pretty hip. And blues of course is constant in Chicago.

TB: Yeah Buddy Guy did a bunch of shows in January.

JB: Buddy Guy, he’s a legend of blues, and always a cornerstone of Chicago.

JR: So – Apocalypse Cow — are you guys Francis Ford-Coppola fans?

JB: I am a Coppola fan. It’s heavily debated how to say his last name isn’t’ it?

JR: Is it Cappola or Coppola?

JB: Who knows, it seems like every three years there’s a new pronunciation for his name!

JR: And he’s a vintner now, he’s got the wine company. I’ve had a lot of his wine it’s very good, but I like his movies better.

JB: Yeah I’m a Dracula fan.

JR: So obviously that play on words was part of your thinking when you came up with your name for the production company “Apocalypse Cow?”

JB: Yeah, that’s a funny story. My brother and I were in high school and he’s a little younger than me. So I was doing a creative writing paper and the teacher said we could submit it as a video instead. I just got this new video camera, which was a big thrill. We did this really bad video, and it had a little character generator on the camera and so we decided we needed a production company, and one of us decided Apocalypse Cow without really thinking about it. Again we’d seen a lot of Coppola films, so we just punched it in and the name kind of stuck. I of course know that I came up with the name, but my brother is under the
delusion that he came up with it, so to this day it’s unresolved, who came up with the name

JR: That’s hilarious, and what’s your brother’s name again?

JB: Dan Jeremy.

JR: So there’s the debate as to who is the creator of this amazing pun. Use a pun,
go to prison! In fact, actually you might laugh at this, we’ve been debating the past couple of months about how to roll out the marketing on a whole new level of service and websites and other things we’re offering. We’re creating a platform for us to build other websites that service other segments of the music business, and it’s an open API for anyone who wants to use it. Right now, after this MIDEM show we picked up another 200,000 tracks so we’re going to be up over 300,000 and I believe that puts us at the number 1 independent catalogue in the U.S. So we’re just talking about how we’re going to do all this stuff. I’m a songwriter and screenwriter and Barry, our founder is a producer working with Steve
Tyrell for many years in Hollywood and we all come from a music background and are continuing the pursuit of our dreams and not giving them up. The pun when I was thinking about with Apocalypse Cow, I said this is going to be my headline ‘Triumph of the “Heard” — Apocalypse Cow places ‘Flashbulbs’ in Beverly Hills Chihuahua 2, Talk about a Zoo”. He loved the idea of “the heard” so we’re going to “join the heard” and make it a catch phrase along with “we get music.” Our deep brand name will be WEGET — that’s our brand behind MusicSupervisor.com. We’re
going to have IndieSafari.com, which will be a indie band fan exploration site and a whole bunch of cool ideas we’re working on now to really make all of this work not only for licensing but for actually being a real spectacular part of hopefully the music business or whatever’s left of it. So what do you think?

JB: That’s fantastic; I think it’s hysterical

JR: Yeah well it’s guys like you that make it all happen. So let’s get back a little ways into history here, how did this all start? How did you begin Apocalypse Cow or even before it was called that? How did you get to this place?

JB: Well my brother, who unfortunately is still stranded in the snow, I don’t know if you heard Chicago got hit.

JR: Oh yeah our guy in Chicago sent me pictures of the streets it’s unbelievable.

JB: Yeah so my brother isn’t here today unfortunately, but he started pretty much when we could reach the piano. My dad PAs like church and school just as a hobby. My mom played some guitar so I was around music but wasn’t really a musician. Then I guess it made sense for me to start putting microphones in front of my brother and just started engineering that way. We got really into Plunderphonics music, so like John Oswald might be a good example of those people. You know we’re all
familiar with mash-ups and sampling now, but that’s kind of like if you took a car and another car and stacked them on top of each other. The way I think of sampling is like you take a spark plug from one car and a lug nut from another, really micro, parts and then piece together a bunch of stuff. It’s probably the slowest way to make music but if you know where all the samples came from you can contextualize some cool meaning and build up a whole song. Our thing is that we wrote songs
with lyrics, and it felt like pop songs when they were done which is definitely not the case for most of the other Plunderphonics people. But like I said, it’s like the slowest way we could possibly make music, so I said screw it, I’m going to buy a guitar like everyone else and just learn it. Around the same time I met Theresa and she was studying performance and music business at DePaul University, and also learning guitar and we were going to learn guitar together but instead we got married. So I guess that’s kind of how the whole thing started, my roommate in college
was a audio engineer, but we were doing computer science stuff so it was unrelated. I was already recording my brother’s stuff and his songs kept getting more elaborate and needed more and more gear. I needed advice from my roommate and at some point he was like “you pretty much have a recording studio why don’t you start taking bands in and do that too”. So I started recording bands and that was like 12 or 13 years ago. I simultaneously was writing because you know that’s where the passion is. When Theresa finished school it became…

TB: …three of us full time here whole different aesthetic from what we had before.

JR: I think there’s still an appreciation for filet mignon, well you’re a vegetarian so — pure delicious food as apposed to fast food. You can hear the difference. I tell members there’s a possibility your music can be played at full volume through Lucas Sound speakers in Cineplex’s all over the world — or soft in the background in the TV show and it doesn’t make a difference how it was recorded. Whatever that
range of possible outcomes though, it seems to me that you would want to make your music sound as great as you can. There are still people out there that want stuff that is recorded with vintage gear, with tube mics and live drummers and that great stuff.

JB: I hope so, because God knows we’ve invested in that stuff. I hope the studio and people want to license music that sounds like that. Not to say there’s no place for the other, but it’s a different thing.

JR: Ultimately. I think that over the long run, quality always wins out. I think your investment in that gear is good, I know people in the studio business that have seen a huge hit to their bookings and they’re not really doing the same kind of busi-
ness that they used to. People don’t really care and are willing to go to somebody’s
bedroom and use Pro Tools. But maybe we can draw more attention to guys like you
that are really trying to do something top quality. One of the comments I have to
tell you from the exec of Disney about “Flashbulbs” is “this track sounds great.” It
was up to par with Madonna’s ‘Vogue’ and that’s one of the reasons it got selected.
When this came along the producers were like “yeah that’s good.” I don’t know if it
could have been accomplished in just a bedroom.

JB/TB: Yeah really, very true. That’s nice to hear

JR: This is the irony of the whole thing — someone is going to listen to it that has
the ability to choose you to be in a movie, and they will be comparing you to theJB: Yeah so between the three of us somebody is writing all the time, and/or two
of us are, and someone is recording most of the time. It’s a pretty busy place!

JR: What area of Chicago are you located in?

JB: We’re 30 miles west of Chicago Proper. So we’re at the end of the train if you
will, the last stop

JR: Well that sounds like LA, you’re basically 30 miles from anything here. I’m 30
miles from my wife and you know she’s in the next room! Anyway, as you can tell
I’m a comedy writer as well so I’m trying out some new material on you.

TB: We can take surveys at the end if you want!

JR: Seriously, though, it’s tough out there, but we’re really determined to find some
new income streams and we’re out into the retail store music space now. We have
700 stores so far and have generated 20 million spins like every 2 or 3 months. It’s
really amazing, if you have the Pro Account, if you ever want to look at that, you get
a one month free trial. Then if you want to continue its $9.99 a month. It gives you
really detailed reports on what’s going on in that division. Also, you can see The
Licensing Lounge where you can hear in real time what we’re pitching. You click on
the title of the songs and the player opens up and you see what the music super-
visor sees. And also your Twitter feed comes down, if someone wants to contact
you they can. We’re building the beginning of a community for our members so it’s
something you might want to check into. We want to get you heard and pump up
our artists and get them out there as part of the reinvention of the music business
JB: Yeah because something’s going to have to happen, clearly, there needs to be a
reinvention. We all feel it, even with the studio. I’ve definitely felt it here — people
generally don’t sell studio produced music on manufactured CDs — they just do it
on their Mac in their bedroom, and that’s good enough to sell at the show. It’s a best records ever made. So why wouldn’t you want to make the best record you
could possibly make? So anyway is there anything else you’d like to say to add to
this interview?

TB: You should add that we also worked with other people in the Chicago area and
one of the co writers on the song for the lyrics is a friend of ours in St. Paul, Minne-
sota, Mike Beckman

JB: And another thing we do is a lot of collaboration with people we’ve met
through the years. For instance, Mike is a machine for writing lyrics and a heck of
a guitarist. I can be like, “Oh Mike I need gypsy guitar” and he’s one of our go-to
guys.

JR: Great, anything else about yourself, your studio, life?

JB: You just missed our annual Groundhogs day mailing. We’re serious!

JR: On our homepage for MusicSupervisor.com, we put our baby pictures up, we’ve
got tongue in cheek bios. We’re just writers and musicians, we’re not egotistical.
It’s part of our culture, so I really liked your attitude and the whole humor in Apoca-
lypse Cow really appeals to me. When I knew this placement was definite I knew I
wanted to do a feature on you.

JB: You were talking about photos and for the longest time we just had shots of
our feet on our site. Who cares what I look like? The baby pictures really made me
laugh when I saw that.

JR: Yeah if we put our real heads up there it would not be pretty. But seriously, it’s
been a lot of fun talking to you and hopefully we’ll get together if you’re ever in LA
or I’m in Chicago or somewhere in between we’ll try to hook up

JB: That’d be fantastic!

Films include: Beverly Hill Chihuahua 2, According to Dom, The Fixer, Dead of
Night, Proceed and Be Bold, Scorpion Bowl, Diabolical Tales III, A Role of Their
Own, Two Brothers, One Beer and the American Dream

Clients include: Naperville Television 17 – Scored several documentaries, Film
Pharm – scored a couple documentaries, Ford Motor Company and Ogilvy & Mather,
Robotic Amusements – Arcade Game, Joue Joue – “Tots Rock” exercise video,
Sunbeam/First Alert, Mountain Dew, Tub Ring – produced the charting album “Zoo
Hypothesis”

Places Cow music has been played: Stations ABC, CBS, MTV, MTV2, Style
Network/E! Entertainment, The History Channel, PBS TLC, National Geographic Ex-
plorer, Planet Green, The Travel Channel, Science Channel, Women’s Entertainment,
Sirius Radio, XM Radio, CMT (Country Music Television), Super Stations across the
USA, NCTV17

Television Shows include: Let’s Make a Deal, Science of the Movies, Little
People, Toddlers and Tiaras, Renovation Nation, Man Made, Samantha Who, Cit-
ies of the Underground, Ace of Cakes, Rock the Cradle, American Idol: Rewind, Dr.
90210, Clean House Comes Clean, Property Ladder, My First Home, Running of the
Brides, Can you Duet, Beach Patrol: Honolulu, Lassie’s Pet Vet, Your Average Zombies Podcast.

Julius Robinson: Hey Chris, so can you give me a quick wrap up on what your latest projects and/or credits are?

Chris Mollere: Sure, currently I’m working on the Vampire Diaries for the CW, Pretty Little Liars for ABC Family, a couple movies in the works that we’re prepping on, but currently just those two TV shows are the big things I’m focusing on.

JR: What is your favorite moment in the process of music supervising? Do you think it’s going through the script, is it the editing, licensing, the premiere? At what point do you say, “This is cool!”

CM: That’s an easy question. My favorite part definitely is taking the episode, working with the editors to find the right songs to work into the shows. Sometimes that is pre-production, sometimes that’s during post-production. Sometimes we have on-camera music that we need to arrange before the shoot. But I think working with picture in post-production is definitely my favorite part, because it’s sitting there on your own and editing music to picture to try
to make it work as perfectly as possible.

JR: What do you find are the differences between working on a comedy or drama, whether it be TV or film — do you find a difference in what the music requirements are for those kind of shows?

CM: TV is so quick that you have to find stuff at a quicker pace. Then you have the different kinds of genres for TV whether it be a drama, dramedy, comedy etc. But it seems like there is one common theme on a lot of the shows, especially for the shows I’ve worked on. We’re trying to keep the heart in it. Also it seems like every show I’ve worked on is a very musically driven. I don’t know if that’s one of those things I’m known for, or just the projects that I have happened to work on.

JR: It seems lately that music — especially in TV — has become as important as any character in the show.

CM: Yeah definitely — even on Vampire Diaries. I feel like we’ve added music as an additional character in addition to the cast. We’ve used music to kind of tell a story whether it be a big break up, a big first kiss, a moment that two people are sharing or when a character has a new revelation. We’re trying to intertwine and make it work hand-in-hand with the score. It’s a challenge and I think we’ve succeeded pretty well with that.

JR: Can you explain how you had to find the right song for a score? That’s an interesting point, how those two fit together.

CM: You don’t want songs that stick out so much. “Oh they just pushed this one in there.” We try to make it feel organic so it’s not as noticeable, so it’s accentuating and not overtaking the score.

JR: How do you deal with a champagne music taste on a beer budget? How do you serve the film without going breaking the bank?

CM: Well there is good champagne out there that isn’t that expensive!

JR: Oh really are you finding champagne is more affordable now a days?

CM: I think so, ha! There are many great artists out there who aren’t on the major labels — making it more possible. There are plenty of artists I’ve worked with whether through MusicSupervisor.com or other high quality catalogs. There are great ones still on major labels, but there are also a bunch that were signed who decided to take their own path. So, I’ve had very small budgets that are challenges to make work, and I’ve had decent budgets that are fun to play with. But at the end of the day you just make do, figure out what you need to make it happen. From there, you just get the best music as possible for working on that project.

JR: Right, so how do you tell a director or producer they can’t afford what they say they must have?

CM: When they tell you the budget, probably the best thing you can do is just be as involved as possible from the beginning. That way when we’re going through the process, I’m giving them options for music that could work, music that they might not know about. ‘Oh this is awesome, what is this? This is cool.’ You don’t get into the whole situation of ‘Oh we put Led Zepplin in and we can’t afford that.’ Or a song quote is maybe denied or not approved in the timeline we have. You just try to be as proactive and aggressive as possible to get what they want to fulfill their musical visions for the project. You’re trying to get stuff in there that they want, and that pushes the boundaries. It’s just part of the job. It’s trying to find what we can’t live without — and what can we change out, and then going after everything as hard as I can.

JR: Are you finding that the major publishers and record labels are willing to deal a lot more especially with TV because the exposure is so good for their artists?

CM: Yeah, I think they’re more open minded now, because it used to be here is a set of rules — if you can’t afford this, then we’re not even going to talk anymore about it. These companies are looking more and more on a case-by-case basis. They are looking at it project by project instead of ‘Oh this is a TV show so it’s doing this.’ What’s the music budget, what kind of ratings is it getting, what’s it airing on. Honestly it just takes having a conversation or two to get people to understand exactly what the project is, and also getting them excited about it. If it is something that gets them and the artist an opportunity to get a little bit more exposure, it’s good for everybody.

JR: The impact of being on some of these shows, that’s got to factor in and help you as a supervisor.

CM: It definitely does. Our goal is to get the best music we can for our show, or movie or whatever. But at the same time we love music to be something more, something bigger, where the artists are getting good exposure because artists are kind enough to allow us to feature their music. I’m happy to do whatever I can to try and get them get as much exposure as possible out of it. That includes twittering after episodes air on the West Coast, to shooting out a list of songs, to doing whatever possible to make sure fans know. The CW, ABC Family, and ABC websites have put up lists of songs aired. Things have definitely changed, record sales aren’t what they used to be and people are selling more singles now than they are albums. So I’ve seen artists that have sold 5,000 units throughout their career, and then a couple weeks after they air on one of the TV shows, sell 20-30,000 downloads of one of their songs. It’s awesome. That’s my goal you know — I started as a music fan and musician first — so seeing that happen and to be able to help in the process is exactly what I love to see happen. It’s the ideal situation.

JR: Are you seeing more step deals, and are some of these major labels willing to do a step deal for a lower budget production or even a TV series?

CM: Most of the TV studios are actually starting their shows off at five to six year rights, with bumps for the different media. They start off at five years TV only, and then they move into more options. This used to predominantly be done with films. Twenty-five years ago a TV show like WKRP had so much music in it, but you could never imagine somebody would want to buy a DVD set. Nobody knew what a DVD was. Now we have new online downloading and new technologies that make these episodes live on for eternity. So it’s been interesting to see how they have tried to utilize the step-deal structure so they can to get the show going. But once it’s going to stick around, they switch it over to the AMXT in perpetuity, which is all media excluding theatrical.

JR: I’d love if you could get specific on this question, and give me a specific example. You can leave out some of the names if you think it’s too embarrassing, but what was your biggest nightmare as a music supervisor? The one time you went “Oh my God am I going to live through this?”

CM: We did an on-camera performance on one of my shows, a UK band, really cool guys, great music. Got them to the set and everything like that, except nobody had checked their visas to make sure they were valid. They didn’t have their work visas completed yet, so they were unable to perform on set. So we called legal and they came down, and made them sign something.

JR: Oh wow, so what happened, were they able to do the on camera? Or did you have to replace them?

CM: We actually had some extras that we’d just put up on stage mimic them. They signed away likeness rights.

JR: That’s a great story, that’s insane. So the moral of the story is check your work visas.

CM: It wasn’t not my job to check the work visas, but it is now. Now it’s one of the first things I ask for — drivers license, passport for US citizens or work visas etc. At that particular studio, now that’s one of the first things they do if they do an on-camera with musicians.

JR: Good tip, and on the reverse side, what is the one gig where you just stood back and thought this is amazing, the music works brilliantly, everyone is high fiving each other — do you have one of those to talk about?

CM: I would say Vampire Diaries is the most recent one where we’re all ecstatic
about the music. But we’ve also worked very hard on the music too. It’s one of those things where we push ourselves until the mix is done. Until we’re on the stage and we finish the mix, the music search continues because we still want to up the level of the show as much as possible. That’s how strongly everyone feels about it. We all go that extra mile to try and make it as good as possible. On Vampire Diaries, whether it is a PA up to the creators of Julie and Kevin, every person is busting their ass to make it that much better. And Pretty Little Liars, we are very proud of that one too. It had a great soundtrack after 10 episodes; it’s been cool to feature a bunch of up and coming artists, artists that haven’t really had much exposure. On Greek we got to feature great up and coming music too. There are a bunch of other shows that I’ve been fortunate enough to work on that have had a great musical identity, and we’re all very proud of and happy with the final product.

JR: Can you name a band or two that has come out of your shows that you feel like you’re really proud of, and you have played a small part in getting them out there?

CM: Florence and the Machine, Temper Trap, Airborne Toxic Event, I don’t know there are probably so many more. We hit them up and found them very early. We just dug the music and got them into the shows. I know we didn’t do it all ourselves, we just helped with the exposure. Maybe somebody working on another show saw it. Or maybe a fan saw them on TV and went to a live show and took two of their friends, and the next time brought more friends — and it just exponentially grows. Yeah I think there are some bands we’ve definitely helped along the way, in the process they’ve helped us a lot too by adding great music to the scenes we’re trying to accentuate.

JR: Great, what do you see as the future of music supervision and as a career, an occupation? What do you think is the future of that and the importance of that position?

CM: In TV shows, films, even trailers for big films, music is playing a vital part in telling the story. As the music industry is in the limbo trying to figure out what to do and how they’re going to sell records, how the major labels are going to stay in business, how the major publishers will make money, how the indie labels will make money, how the indie bands will survive and go on tour — I think the way it’s going to proceed is film/tv placements. Music supervision is going to be a very huge part of the music industry. It’s become more of a primary piece of the industry puzzle, compared to when it used to be more of a secondary piece. For music, film and TV is more of a primary source of income instead of secondary as it used to be. The supervisor will become even more of a music producer. With technology it’s become simpler to record a track. Basically music will start to be more tailor-made for these projects, by bigger and bigger artists. We still find those great songs that come out on records and that’s always great, but I think music for film/tv is going to become even more hands-on and even more unique to whatever project people are working on.

JR: In terms of music discovery I think film, TV and the internet have become as important, if not more, than radio.

CM: Yeah, and wait until Apple announces next week about the iCloud with four major labels signing on to stream music so you have it at your access without having to store it anywhere. That’s where people are going to be finding more music. “Oh I love that song” so go check it out, and from there click on who else would I like. I think even as a music fan it will become more interactive throughout.

JR: Do you think there should be an Academy Award for best music supervisor?

CM: Yes I definitely think so. Music plays such a vital part in films especially now. And what is the one thing people buy in addition to a movie ticket or DVD or BlueRay? it’s the soundtrack.